S2 E44: The Real Reason Wealthy Retirees Still Wake Up Anxious

You’re listening to The Wealth Mindset Show where Hixon Zuercher Capital Management’s team of finance professionals, portfolio managers, and a life coach come together to tackle complex topics in finance and retirement planning so you don’t have to. From investment strategies and wealth management to tax planning, retirement income, and aligning your money with your values and purpose, The Wealth Mindset Show offers the tools to thrive.

 

Austin Wilson:

All right. Hey, hey, hey, welcome to The Wealth Mindset Show where the Hixon Zuercher team has conversations about managing wealth, navigating retirement, making smart decisions for a secure, meaningful future. I’m Austin Wilson, Chief Investment Officer at Hixon Zuercher Capital Management.

Josh Robb:

I’m Josh Robb, Director of Wealth Management at Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. Joining us today is Chase Rose, one of our advisors here, and we’re going to be hitting the topic of wealthy people and why they still have anxiety around money. And at some point, does that completely go away? What is it? So we’re going to talk about that.

 

[0:56] – Life Updates: Pre-Season Football, Stocks, and Ice Cream

Josh Robb:

But first updates, we’re kind of heading into the end of summer, into the very beginning of fall and school starting back up, football. So my son who loves football, obsessed, this morning saw that the first preseason game starts and he’s like, “Dad, we’re watching.” I’m like, “It’s pre-season, but sure, we’ll watch it.” So he’s all excited. He’s all in.

Austin Wilson:

Chase, what you got going on?

Chase Rose:

Nothing new for me.

Austin Wilson:

Nothing new.

Chase Rose:

Stocks and ice cream, man. That’s all I do.

Josh Robb:

That’s it.

Austin Wilson:

Stocks and ice cream. Josh?

Josh Robb:

Yeah. Those are two combos.

Austin Wilson:

That is a good one.

Josh Robb:

I like it. What about you, Austin? I don’t do…

Austin Wilson:

Stocks and Dole Whip.

Chase Rose:

That’s a combo.

Austin Wilson:

That’s a combo.

Chase Rose:

We have a new Dole Whip machine at Kips.

Austin Wilson:

Oh, you got one? Good. I’m coming down to visit.

Chase Rose:

Okay. Absolutely.

Josh Robb:

Do you pineapple, the OG Dole Whip?

Austin Wilson:

Is that the OG?

Josh Robb:

Yes.

Chase Rose:

I didn’t know that.

Josh Robb:

Yes.

Austin Wilson:

I thought it was orange. I’ve never had Dole Whip.

Josh Robb:

Pineapple is their original Dole Whip flavor.

Chase Rose:

You can only get it in a cup though because it’s not solid enough to go into a cone.

Josh Robb:

Yeah, that’s fine.

Chase Rose:

It’ll get soggy.

Austin Wilson:

We don’t want that. That’s just a mess.

Josh Robb:

Just be everywhere.

Austin Wilson:

That’s just a mess.

Josh Robb:

But it’s good though. It’s vegan, I believe.

Austin Wilson:

Sure.

Josh Robb:

The original Dole Whip was gluten-free vegan.

Austin Wilson:

That’s a lot of strikes. It’s just pineapple.

Josh Robb:

It’s frozen pineapple.

Austin Wilson:

You’re not making the sale.

Josh Robb:

No, it’s actually really good. Not a lot of extra ingredients.

Austin Wilson:

I’ll come to Kips and make up for it with a triple whip, creamy, real dairy.

Chase Rose:

We actually just added the triple whip to the menu.

Austin Wilson:

That’s right. That’s right. It’ll be the gut buster according to Josh.

Josh Robb:

Yes. Any little bits a gut buster.

Austin Wilson:

All right. So yeah, for us, summer’s kind of winding down. It’s cool. Everything’s good. We’re walking a lot with the kids and gearing up for another year of homeschool. So yeah, it’s all good. Oh, our oldest turns nine.

Josh Robb:

Nine. That’s crazy.

Austin Wilson:

I’m like, I’m 23. How do I have a nine-year-old?

Josh Robb:

The math is weird.

Austin Wilson:

But no, things are good. Happy birthday, Juliana. Whenever this comes out, you’ll be nine by then. So yes, the question is, yeah, you’ve done well, you’ve acquired some assets, you’ve got a nice nest egg, you’re retired. You’ve got, who knows, two, three, $5 million. But still, you wake up in the morning, middle of the night and you’re like, “Oh, is it enough? Is everything going to be okay?” And that sounds very counterintuitive because to people who are still in the accumulation phase, they’d kill for that. That’s the goal, right?

Josh Robb:

Got five million.

Austin Wilson:

You’ve reached the goal.

Josh Robb:

That’s their thought.

 

[3:26] – The ‘What If’s’ That Keep Retirees Up at Night

Austin Wilson:

And so what are you worried about? But actually, I think there’s a lot of the mental side of things that people need to think about once they get to that point of why money might not be all they’re worried about, but it certainly can exacerbate the thoughts that they’ve got in the middle of the night. So yeah, that’s kind of what we’re going to be talking about today.

So yeah, the questions that retirees might be asking, these are things that keep them up. What if the market crashes? Well, that can have a big impact on things. That can certainly keep them up at night. What if I outlive my money? What if I live till I’m 120? Because my financial plan Chase put together for me only goes to 95. That’s a long time to live past that. What if healthcare costs explode? What if I spend too much money? What if I don’t get to achieve the goals I have set for leaving a legacy for my children? What if I go through all my money? And then what if I just make a bad investment decision? Or some of the softer side of things is, what if I just don’t know what to do? What if I retired? Again, I got all the money I need, what do I do with myself?

So these are the questions that I think can keep people up at night and the things we’re going to be talking about today. So let’s start by discussing why more money, talking absolute dollars here, doesn’t always mean more confidence. So talk a little bit guys about the difference between having wealth and feeling wealthy.

 

[4:39] – Why More Money Doesn’t Always Mean More Confidence

Josh Robb:

Yeah. The first one, and this really drives back to the psychological side of people, is how and what they perceive that money to be in their life. So for instance, if someone grew up without a lot of money, they may have a scarcity mindset that’s ingrained subconsciously from their upbringing. And no dollar amount’s really going to change that until they address that underlying reasoning of there’s never enough or it’s never guaranteed to still be here. And so the dollar amount’s never going to be the right number to solve that. They have to actually deal with that underlying worldview of how they view that money.

And for a lot of these as we talk through them, that’s really what it’s going to be is there’s going to be an underlying worldview of here’s how I see things and that’s why it’s affecting me because you’re right in that the more money you have in the bank, it should alleviate stress and anxiety. But what we know, especially sitting across from people, you replace one concern problem with another at times. So as we think through those, all the ones you just mentioned, but just because you have money, you probably replace some worries with some new ones.

Austin Wilson:

More money, more problems.

Chase Rose:

Dude, you took the words out of my mouth, man. I’ve been sitting here for-

Austin Wilson:

More money, more problems.

Chase Rose:

That was going to be my first line.

Austin Wilson:

Dang it Chase, that was a good one.

Chase Rose:

Stole it.

Austin Wilson:

But yeah, I mean, I guess the more assets you have, that is something that people don’t often think of. Maybe that more complex your situation gets, you’ve got more tax questions, you’ve got more all kinds of, they’re not problems per se, but there are other things tie up your mind, like you said. And I think that the stakes are higher too. That’s something that people don’t often think about is if you have $5 million net worth, if you make a mistake that erases 20% of your wealth, that’s a million dollars of an impact. But if you have a hundred grand as a net worth, that 20%’s losing $20,000.

Josh Robb:

A little difference.

 

[6:37] – Anxiety #1: What If the Market Crashes?

Austin Wilson:

So when you think of it on a percentage basis, which brings me to one of the first things I talked about is an anxiety that a retiree with a lot of assets might have is what if the market crashes? Because guess what? Markets, even though at the time of this recording, we’re pretty much at all time highs and markets have continued to go up for about four years in a row, markets don’t always go up. Markets don’t-

Josh Robb:

It’s not a what if, it’s when.

Austin Wilson:

Yeah, it’s a when things go down. So yeah, maybe you’ve got a few million dollars laying around, but that market drops 20%, that changes the math on a lot of things real quick. And then you start having all kinds of anxiety around risk. Am I taking on too much risk? Should I go to cash? Should we stop spending and change our lifestyle? But Josh, talk a little bit about the history when it comes to, we just need to understand the financial markets in general.

Josh Robb:

Yeah. Like I said, it’s not an if-

Austin Wilson:

Yeah, it’s a when.

Josh Robb:

Because when you look back on time, the market works in cycles. And part of that cycle is when the market gets too far ahead of itself, gets a little bit expensive, there’s a correction or pullback. That pullback, that downward movement is a repricing back to more fundamental pricing. And that process is not fun, but that’s the way you talk about that 20% plus pullback that happens every 6 to 10 years, somewhere in that range.

Austin Wilson:

And Chase, talk a little bit about how we work with our clients to engineer ways to maybe take some of the anxiety around that.

Chase Rose:

Yeah, so we do a lot of stress testing, so we can run retirement projections and we actually, it’s pretty standard for us to do this and show our clients, “Hey, if we get a market environment like A, B, and C, regardless of how you come out of that, your plan still looks good.” So stress testing your plan and showing them the results of that plan and saying even regardless of what happens in the market over the next two years, you’re still on the right track. Really, we would prefer people don’t pull that trigger to retire until that stress test has really solved itself because that’s what we call the bad timing test. If you retire and we go right into a bear market, that’s the worst timing scenario you can have.

Austin Wilson:

Absolutely.

Chase Rose:

You spent your life building up this nest egg and then all of a sudden it’s cut by 20% or 30% or whatever that number is. So it’s a balance of making sure you understand what that client’s tolerance for risk is, like what’s their ultimate downside that they’re willing to take and then test that downside and say, okay, well, if we get that ultimate, that bottom level that you’re willing to risk, how does that impact your plan? As long as you make sure you’re coming out on the good side of that projection, then you should feel good about moving into retirement. It doesn’t always solve all your anxiety because I don’t think anything will ever solve 100% of your concerns, but hopefully that having a second opinion and hearing someone else say that you can do it regardless of what happens should feel pretty good.

Josh Robb:

And the other piece of it is looking at each situation and saying, okay, what is really reliant on this? So for instance, if you’re spending, let’s say $100,000, but 40,000 of that is all your fun stuff and your really basic needs are 60, that’s the idea that, oh, I could cut back. And sometimes just knowing you have a plan is what relieves that anxiety is I don’t have to do anything, but if I need to, we’ve already talked about the two or three things that have to happen to get me back into that confidence zone is I postpone this or I activate another line of income. So maybe I claim social security, which I’ve been waiting for, but now I need the income. Or I go back and get a part-time job just to supplement. Creating a plan ahead of time is really the key to that one is if you want to avoid the anxiety, know you pre-plan for that scenario.

Austin Wilson:

Well, and that’s what brings me to you also can allocate funds to prepare for that. So we use what’s called a bear market fund. A bear market fund in our world where we may have two or three years of living expenses in a really, really short duration, really low risk bond portfolio for our clients where if the markets do fall apart, which they do, again, we’ve talked about it, markets do go down and sometimes it’s never fun and sometimes it’s pretty steep. Sometimes it can take a little while to recover. We’re not forced to make long-term impactful decisions of selling stocks when they’re low. So that’s where we can, as we’re gearing up towards retirement or early into it, prepare in advance to say, “Hey, we got this already set aside. You’re covered. This will hopefully help you sleep at night. Stick with the plan with the rest of your money because this part is here for you if you need it.” Again, we hope not to need it.

 

[11:01] – Anxiety #2: “What If I Live Too Long?”

Austin Wilson:

All right. The other one, what if I live too long? So talk a little bit about how long we plan for retirement for people and longevity becoming a really big factor because people are living longer obviously, and just factors around that.

Josh Robb:

Yeah. I mean, life expectancy tables are in the mid to late 80s right now for people here in the United States. Good plan, you might want to plan a little bit beyond that to make sure you have some cushion built into there. So like we mentioned, we’re right in the mid 90s for that. If you have longevity in family, planning for even longer helps because if you have, as one of your goals, legacy, leaving something to the next generation, you’re really just balancing that with that’s also your safety net of spending if you live too long. And it’s those two play hand in hand. But the biggest piece is making sure you’re sustainably withdrawing because that’s how you make sure you offset that, making sure you’re not taking too much out too early and you leave some for later.

Austin Wilson:

And the general old rules of thumb, the 4% rule and stuff like that should theoretically even last beyond what you need. That’s a-

Josh Robb:

Well, you take any percent besides 100% out, it’ll never get to zero.

Austin Wilson:

It’s still growing.

Josh Robb:

Well, and because how percentages work, you’re always taking that percentage off of the remaining balance. So even if you’re taking 50% out, you’ll never get to zero technically because every time you’re only taking 50% of what’s left. So yeah, percentage-wise, if you stick to a plan like that, you’re actually guaranteeing you’ll have money, guaranteeing percentage-wise. It may not be the amount you need, but you’ll still have money to withdraw. So you’re right, 4% is kind of the standard. It works because it’s tested for 30 plus year retirements. But again, people retire in their 60s, there’s more than 30 years now. We’re looking 40 to 50 year retirements based on longevity. So you might want to be a little more cautious on some of that.

Austin Wilson:

Absolutely.

Chase Rose:

Another thing we try not to do is we don’t want to, for the sake of feeling good about the progress that we’re making towards retirement, we don’t want to beat a retirement plan into submission. And what we mean by that is we don’t want to change variables to make it look better than it might actually be. And one way that you can do that is by reducing the end of your plan or when you pass away. And that’s not an uncommon thing to do. I mean, we’ve given second opinions on people’s plans who the person who gave them advice elsewhere said, “Yeah, you’re going to live to 90.” Where we’ll never go earlier than 95. We’ll only go higher than that if we need to. And the reason we do that is because if you live to 85 and you leave a legacy, that’s better than living past whatever you were planning to and you run out of money.

So you have to have real conversations and be real honest with yourself like, “Yeah, my parents and my grandparents only live to their 80s, but I need to make sure that even if I do live past that, I still have enough in the bank.”

Austin Wilson:

Right.

 

[13:58] – Anxiety #3: “I Don’t Want to Spend Too Much”

Josh Robb:

And then on the reverse side of that, what if I spend too much?

Austin Wilson:

Exactly.

Josh Robb:

And that’s the other side. Live too long or what if I spend too much, just run out? And that anxiety really, it’s hard to get that one away because again, with the unknown of how long do I have, that am I spending too much is a hard one to answer. But it goes back to, well, we can use historical data to say if you withdraw within this range, historically you’ve been able to last that whole time. And that’s the piece. Keeping money in certain buckets is a nice way of doing it. Here’s my spend money, here’s my kind of extra, and I’ll only withdraw from there as it goes. And also understanding the difference between needs and your wants because the bare minimum, what do I need? And then making sure you have that in a more stable way of providing social security pensions, something like that. Then everything above that is nice to say, okay, I could do it. It’s great, but if I don’t have it, I could still survive.

Austin Wilson:

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I would say when you guys have a lot of conversations with clients, the ones that I hear about, a lot of times there’s just as many conversations about encouraging people to enjoy the wealth that they’ve accumulated in their life as there are one saying, “Hey, we’re watching this and let’s be careful here.” There’s just as many that are like, “Listen, you’ve done fine. Look what you’ve built. Look what you were ready to leave. And your plan says, go to Italy for a month. I don’t care. Spend $20,000, you’re going to be just fine. Or go buy a new car and stop, not fixing your whatever.” So I think that that’s something that it’s a mental switch and it goes back to the normal, this is a normal retirement transition thing where when you don’t have that paycheck coming in, you change your views.

Josh Robb:

It’s hard to switch that. And the other thing, I mean, more people are scared of running out of money than dying itself when people list fears. The fear of running out of money is even higher than the actual fear of death. And that is because of the big unknown of what would I do at that point. And so you’re right, it’s a hard one to get around, but if you can, the idea is you could probably have a little bit more enjoyable retirement if you’re able to at least allow yourself some of that spending beyond that.

Austin Wilson:

Why’d you build it up if you can never spend it?

Josh Robb:

That’s right. What was the purpose? Yep.

Chase Rose:

And I don’t want to say it’s as frustrating, from the advisor perspective I don’t want to say it’s as frustrating as someone who’s overspending, but when someone’s underspending based on the formulas and whatnot that we use, and we’re trying to encourage them to spend more and they just don’t know, I don’t know if I want to, don’t know if I need to, things of that nature.

It’s not frustrating, but it’s like I wish that switch could flip easier for some people because I don’t want to take away from the discipline that it takes to build up a nest egg of wealth that supplies what your needs are for the rest of your life because it does take a lot of discipline and you spend 30, 40 years following those disciplines and then you’re doing the exact opposite once you reach your goal. It’s really hard to do. For some people it’s really easy to do. So it really depends on the person, but it’s why it’s really important to get a separate opinion, someone that’s going to take the emotion out of it and say, “Okay, what can I do? Please just tell me what’s realistic and then we’ll figure it out from there.”

Austin Wilson:

Absolutely.

Josh Robb:

Because unfortunately we’ve been on that far end where they look back and regret. And that’s the thing we’re trying to avoid is that regret of, I wish I just would’ve done a little more, especially early on in retirement. And that’s what we’re trying to encourage is just enjoy those hardworking assets that you accumulated. And that was the whole point of accumulating them, like you said, is to enjoy them later on. So try to help with that is part of our job.

 

[18:33] – Anxiety #4: “What About My Kids & Leaving a Legacy?”

Austin Wilson:

And another component of that is just, we talked about a little bit, the legacy. What if I don’t get to leave my kids what I thought I was going to leave them? How much is enough? What if they don’t handle it well? Thinking about, and this is totally a mind game of, well, you’re worrying about something that you may not even know is going to be a problem, but it’s a natural thing and every family handles it differently. But talk a little about your guys’ experience just with that transition of wealth between generations and the anxiety that can cause.

Chase Rose:

Well, I would never want a client of ours to suffer financially on their own for their kid’s benefit. I mean, a lot of people go through… I mean, when you have kids, you raise them and you try to set them up for success in their own lives, and hopefully you do enough in those first 20 something years of their lives that they can be self-sufficient. So I think a lot of people put more pressure on themselves to leave a legacy to the next generation than I think they need to. It’s fine to have goals as long as it fits within your plan. If you’re suffering or reducing your own quality of life in order to reach those goals, I think perhaps an adjustment of priorities needs to happen. But if you’re the kind of person that just focuses and that’s your one goal in life, that’s fine. We’ll figure out how to make that work with all the projections and whatnot that we can do.

Josh Robb:

Yeah, that’s it. It’s really addressing what’s the actual worry you have.

Chase Rose:

Yeah.

Josh Robb:

I might not leave them something, well, we can work on carving out. There’s all the things you can do. If it’s, I’m worried they won’t handle it well, that’s a different worry.

Chase Rose:

Of course.

Josh Robb:

And you got to address that differently. And there’s ways to do that as well. So it’s really, what is the actual worry you have?

Austin Wilson:

Totally.

Josh Robb:

Is it leaving it? Is it they won’t do it right? What are that piece? And then addressing the actual problem because you’re right. Sometimes it’s so broad-based, you actually have to boil down and they say, “Well, I really want to help pay for their college.” Okay, what does that look like and why are you doing that? And then you find out what that is.

 

[20:31] – A Bigger Issue & Why the Retirement Transition is the Hardest Part

Austin Wilson:

I think having those conversations really helps everyone. It helps the next generation. It helps you. And I think that that’s really the key to it. I guess when we’re looking back at all the reasons that we could be anxious as we’re in retirement, even though our numbers look fine, the bigger really issue is there’s just a huge transition going on. Again, this is a transition where we’ve spent 20, 30, maybe 40 years doing something for our lives, getting a consistent paycheck, having great benefits, raising a family, saving our money, working, and then we have to change our mind.

Our mind is now, well, now I can start focusing on the things that I worked for and the things that I want to be pouring into now that I have all this, I have assets, I’ve got wealth, I’ve got time, hopefully I’ve got some health if I retired early enough. I need to be doing these things while I can. So talk about a little bit about the non-financial side of things. We’re trying to get some purpose, trying to get some drive, some reason to get out of bed in the morning as that can hopefully help alleviate some of that anxiety as well.

Josh Robb:

Yeah, and that’s really what it is. Try to get them to stop focusing so much on the money, especially retirees is if the plan works and it looks good, all right, hey, let’s find ways to relieve that anxiety. I don’t want you waking up at 3:00 AM. What can we do to address those questions that you’re asking in the middle of the night when you’re waking up so that you could focus on those other things? And part of that is if you are busy doing other things, you have less time to worry about. And so staying busy and active and having that purpose really helps alleviate that concern. And then as we jump from there, the last part is show them, okay, here’s what you actually have, here’s how it can work, here’s what it can do, and historically, here’s why we think we’re confident.

Sometimes just reminding is a good thing. Here’s how it works. Worst case, if it drops, here’s what we’re going to do. Here’s what we’ve already put in place to offset that. Like you talked about that bear market fund. We’ve already protected two years.

Austin Wilson:

Yeah, you’re good to go.

Josh Robb:

The idea is remind them of all the steps that have been done to alleviate that worry ahead of time. Sometimes it’s just reminding them.

Chase Rose:

If our life coach, Scott Miller were here, I would ask him to bestow some wisdom upon our listeners, but he’s talked a lot about the transition from a non-financial aspect and how important it is to take a halftime is what he calls it. So think about the first half of life. Think about a football game. You go out and you have this game plan that you prepared for, and you go into the locker room at halftime and things are changing. It’s a whole new game in the second half, but you need that halftime to figure out the new game plan going forward because you’ve gotten a taste for what’s ahead, but you’re not totally prepared, so you need to use that time wisely. And we encourage our clients to do that when they’re not even just a retirement transition, but just a life transition in general.

Take some time, figure out what’s important to you, who’s going to be with you along the way and how you want to get there to whatever your goals are, and really take some time to reflect on that. It’s really important to just focus in, refocus is the term that he likes to use on what’s ahead and figure out the best way forward.

 

[23:45] – So What Actually Brings Peace of Mind & Comfortability?

Josh Robb:

And with that, being honest with yourself. So what does it take for me to feel comfortable? Maybe there isn’t dollar number. Maybe it’s just this has always been in my head, I need to go here. Okay, that could be your goal. What is enough? What is it that for me would relieve these anxieties? Sometimes it’s okay, if I know I have enough here, safe in a spot, I feel good about everything else. Some people, I need this amount in my account, and then maybe it’s a checking account, savings account, wherever. As long as I can see that, I’m okay. Everything else can do whatever it does. It’s just finding out that just in its honesty, what does it take for me to remove those anxieties that we talked about? What does it take for me to say, okay, I need to trust that I did everything right to get here and I will be okay going forward?

Austin Wilson:

And I think it’s more than enough from a financial standpoint. It’s also, do I have enough of an idea of what I’m doing? Do I have enough of an idea of what my family situation is going to be and do it? So it’s combining the financial and then… It’s what we do. We combine the financial and non-financial side. And once you get those things checked off, hopefully those 3:00 AM calls are just… Hopefully you can sleep pretty well. So yeah, any closing thoughts on those thoughts for retirees?

Josh Robb:

It’s not unusual to have those, so don’t think that there’s something wrong with you. That’s the other one too, is some people don’t talk about it and they silently suffer through this when had they just brought it up with someone they trust, they could have worked through and come up with some of these solutions. So first of all, don’t think that it’s just you dealing with this. This is a normal common occurrence in retirement to kind of question and worry about these things, but you can get around that. You can get through that and get on the other side.

Chase Rose:

Yep, absolutely. Nothing for me.

Austin Wilson:

Awesome. Well, if you know someone who might be struggling with some of those anxieties, that is what we would love to help with. So check out hzcapital.com. We’d love to have a chat and see if we could be of help for you there. If you found value in our show today, Wealth Mindset Show, go ahead and subscribe. You get new episodes when they drop every couple weeks and visit The Wealth Mindset Show for more show resources and social media. You can follow us on there. Otherwise, we’ll catch up in a couple weeks. All right, talk to you later. Bye.

 

Thank you for joining us at The Wealth Mindset Show, where we tackle the complexities of finance and life planning to help you align your wealth with your values. We hope today’s conversation provided value and clarity as you navigate your financial journey.

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